Old Time Radio at OTRCat!

Wednesday, April 25, 2012

So, Jesus needs a place to sit, see...

One of the very few agreeable things President O'bama has done has been to distance us and our foreign policy from Israel and the Zionist lobby. For decades, our dealings with Israel have been...close, with rich Uncle Sam delivering the shekels and armaments to help maintain Israeli security. In return, Israel has been our buddy in the Middle East, while spying on us, and shooting one of our ships. The Evangelical Christian Right has been behind much of this, because from reading Scofield's notes, The Late Great Planet Earth, and the Left Behind series, as well as watching practically any popular preacher on telly,  they have gotten it into their noddles that if we do not support Israel with our tax dollars, then we as a nation will be Perdition-bound, because the Bible says

 1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country,
your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
 2 “I will make you into a great nation,
   and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
   and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
   and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
   will be blessed through you.”
(Genesis 12:1-3)
CLEARLY God is saying that if you bless or curse Israel, then you will be blessed or cursed.

Hmmm. As Daffy Duck says, "Pronoun trouble". To whom is Yahweh speaking? Does Israel even exist yet? Who will the LORD bless? Whose name make great? Through whom will all peoples be blessed?

How long is a piece of string?

"But, but..." cogently asserts Rev. Strawman, cleverly identifying "Israel" as the culprit. Rev, if you read your New Testament, you will find that the inspired writer correctly collars the miscreant: Jesus.

 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. ...15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Read Galatians to get a feel for it. The nation of Israel existed for a single glorious reason: to provide a conduit through which Messiah could come with healing in his wings, to redeem us and reconcile us to the Father.

The idea that Jesus requires Israel to exist so He can have a throne from whence to reign is a major reason for the immense fortune of American largesse that has been poured into Israel's capacious maw. I find it correctly ironic that a nominal believer in something-or-other has had to helm the Presidency to get this at least partially right.


Doom said...

I have considered both sides and still stick with stuffing Israel's pockets. If nothing it really messes with their neighbors (and, be honest, we are even stuffing those pockets if to a lesser degree). (this comment is very brief and rough, but... should do)

As for spying, we do the same. I absolutely promise. From their government to their industry, we look where and when we can. Harm? Pick a nation who hasn't harmed us, or put it all out and compare. While attacking our ship, what forty years ago or more?, was pretty blatant, it still is less than what other allies have done and far less than islam and other enemies do.

Religiously? To be honest, I think most Christians will miss the boat when Christ comes, part deux. I fear that myself. And while I agree that they were a conduit, I do think they still have a God birthright. They are still blessed. I am not at all sure about prophecy, any of it, really. Is Israel still Israel, or is Israel simply a name to be shifted, perhaps like Armageddon?

Still, your call. I liked the status quo, before Obama, and will be glad to see it return. While Israel has to be kept in check, on some things, they also must be allowed to do, over there, what we *oh my gosh, but the muzzies just need love!* dare not. Meh.

The Aardvark said...

We need to "release the hounds", let the Mossad do its thing, let the Israelis do their thing, and keep our hands off. Not our business. We keep them muzzled so the Mid-east is somewhat stable, and we have plenty of Saudi oil to guzzle to keep our enviro-freaks happy that we aren't drill, drill, drilling, baby.

Spying, of COURSE we do! The point is that all is not sweetness and light in Zion-ville. The mis-reading of Scripture, esp. the end of Matthew where Jesus prophesies an END to Israel if they reject Him gives the clue that what is called Israel today is NOT Biblical Israel, despite any pretensions to the contrary. The utter destruction of the Temple in 70 AD sealed the deal. Jesus, our Passover Lamb, was dead, buried, resurrected, and at Father's right hand. The Church was established, and Paul makes clear that the obedient church is the Body of Christ, the ultimate recipient of the promise to Abraham. I suspect that the reason the Jews are so reviled throughout the AD period is that they remain as pretenders to the throne, passing themselves off as Still God's Chosen, when they sold their birthright through their own disobedience in the first century. As to your or my place when Jesus returns: Even when we are not, He is faithful. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that we can accidentally "trip" out of the Kingdom, once we are in Christ. One must volitionally "take the Mark", burn the pinch of incense to Lord Caesar, make a decision to turn away from Jesus. No "Whoops. SURPRISE!"

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. " 1Jn1:7

Read all of the epistle of 1 John. Take comfort and strength from Jesus' faithfulness, and from our fellowship with Him,and in Him, with one another.

Politics? Pah. Economics? Feh. Jesus is Lord, and we who are his shall reign with Him, and are to reign in life even now.

(I like Israel as a geo-political entity. I have Jewish friends. I also have Jewish fiends!)

Giraffe said...

I really have only been exposed to LaHaye and Lindsey.

From what I have read, and I admit it may be biased, it is a miracle the nation of Israel exists today.

Like they had Help. Perhaps we've had this discussion before Aardvark.

I don't know what the end will be like, neither does Hal Lindsey; he's proved as much. But I would not be surprised if Israel has a role to play. In fact I'd be surprised if they don't. It seems there are some prophesies about them that haven't been fulfilled.

The Aardvark said...

@Giraffe- Great to see you! I really appreciate your joining in.

Likely we have spoken of this before. I was a "Late Great Planet Earther" back in High School and college, and well into adulthood. The problem was, a lot of the points made never quite tracked Scripturally, and the texts which CLEARLY speak of the resurrection and final judgment were transmogrified into this Rapture business, which gets shoehorned into everything else. Few spend much time allowing Jesus Himself to speak (again, the Matthew 23 and forward teachings) which prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem, which was accomplished handily in AD70. The Temple, priesthood and all were done away with. No more sacrifices or anything. That being the case (and God Himself chose the Temple location) how can Mosaic religion even exist anymore? Jesus was THE sacrifice Lamb, once for all. No more need for Levites, priests and altars. Read the histories of the siege of Jerusalem in Josephus' and Tacitus' writings. Mush of it reads like a laundry list of prophetic fulfillment.

We can look at the "Miracle of Israel" and discuss it no end, but none of it negates what God said in the OT, and what Jesus His Son said in the New. The scribes and Pharisees clearly understood what Jesus meant in the vineyard parable, where the vineyard was taken away and given to others.

We who are in Christ are the recipients of that vineyard, because of the rebellion and disobedience of the previous tenants.

Yeah...Lindsay. He has not repented for any of the false predictions he has made since the '70s. He just updates 'em and writes another book.

Again, we should let Israel alone to do what it must do. They are Not Our Problem. We are our problem. The Psalmist wrote "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.". I've got no beef with that. Let us pray on.

Bottom line: it REALLY bugs me that major policy decisions in our country have been made based on a system of eschatology that was invented only a couple of hundred years ago. I find it interesting that most of the fruit loop church groups have proliferated since that time. That may be post hoc ergo propter hoc, but aberrant teaching tends to cluster.

Giraffe said...

I have no problem leaving Israel to fend for themselves. God doesn't need our help.

Yet, I still wonder. What about the two witnesses? We should be able to point to the two people in history. God doesn't fulfill prophecy behind the bushes.

The Aardvark said...

Rev. 11 can be a puzzle, but if we use the key given us in Rev. 1, we will do well.

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. "

What must SOON take place...the time is NEAR, and it is all about the testimony of Jesus & the Word of God.

Re: the 2 prophets: They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Who in Scripture could do that? Elijah shut up the rain. Moses turned the water to blood. Elijah represents the prophets, Moses, the Law. Both were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and both were "put to death" when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, in AD70 (Judaism ended). They are taken up to heaven to be remembered, but no longer followed, as Jesus has fulfilled both. The Gospel is in place, and Jesus has died, is risen, and sits at the right hand of His Father's throne.

The first three verses of Revelation bring into serious question the view of Revelation being a history-spanning prophecy.